Steve's Rules with legendary executive recruiter Steve Nelson from the McCormick Group

Listen to Top Executive Recruiters Share How to Turn Government Service Into a Career As a Government Relations Professional

• Steve Nelson • Season 2 • Episode 1

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Leveraging government service into a lucrative career in government relations can be done. But, it can be tricky to turn your knowledge and connections into a career path. This podcast will be especially informative for those folks currently in Capitol Hill contemplating your next move. We start out the second season of the acclaimed Steve's Rules podcast series with a fast paced discussion featuring McCormick group principals David Ris and Tim Horgan. Join Steve and his colleagues as they share lessons learned in this high stakes area of executive recruiting with a special deep dive for those coming out of government service from Capitol Hill and beyond. We take an insider look at what candidates can expect whether they are pursuing a position in-house, with an association or a multi client practice.
 
Episode Notes:
Email Steve and his guests:
Steve Nelson snelson@tmg-dc.com
David Ris dris@tmg-dc.com
Tim Horgan thorgan@tmg-dc.com

Article Referenced in Podcast:
Building a Better Mousetrap: A Model for a Lawyer’s Business Plan

Contact Steve
McCormick Group

Contact Murray
M Coffey

Unknown:

Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast featuring Steve Nelson, executive principal at McCormick group in the law and government affairs practice. My name is Murray Coffey, and I am the principal of M Coffey, a law firm marketing and business development Boutique. For more information, please visit my website at M coffey.net Steve has been an executive recruiter for nearly three decades, and without naming names, he is ready to spill the tea on best practices, and maybe a few not so best practices by firms and candidates that he has seen during his career, recruiting some of the most driven and successful professionals into highly profitable and growing firms. Steve is a former lawyer and journalist and is a fellow of the college of law practice management and a proud son of Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full transparency here, Steve has helped my career immensely through the years and has become something of a career shaman to me and I know many others. Hey, Steve, welcome to Season Two of Steve's rules, we are in we made it, we made it, we made it over. Hurray. Listen in the world of podcasting, getting to season two is sort of the the make or break for a lot of podcasts. So a lot of podcasts are abandoned after the first season, and we have a plan for, you know, world domination over the next 1520, years. So so I'm, I'm excited and welcome into 2024, and we've got a great, really interesting conversation today on a unique slice of the executive recruiting world with two of our leading experts and colleagues of yours. So let me turn it over to you, Steve, you set the table, introduce your colleagues, and let's get into it all

Steve:

right. So one of the hallmarks of our company, the McCormick group, is that we have done a lot of work for many, at least 20 years, in the government relations space, and that is primarily with law firms, increasing number of lobbying for firms, but also corporations and trade associations. So it's been, it's a big practice for us, and I wanted to introduce two of our principals that work in that area, Dave Riss and Tim Horgan. Dave, why don't you give a little bit of an introduction to yourself, and then we'll have Tim do the same.

Dave Ris:

Thanks, Steve. So my world is, is placing candidates who are both attorneys and lobbyists, and infrequently they wear both hats, which is pretty, which is very normal in DC. The candidates come from the hill. It could be member staff. They could be committee staff, certainly from the government agencies, primarily, but not exclusively, political appointees. And of course, we also work with candidates who are already downtown. They're already out in the private sector. And then the second thing, a big part of my world is representing candidates that is helping those candidates to transition to the private sector. It's a situation where, normally I clients ask me to find talent. I like to flip the process on its head, and instead find the talent and then call the call the clients, and it is still an employer pays the fee. Kind of arrangement, obviously we, we do it on a highly selective basis.

Tim Horton:

Great Tim. My name is Tim Horgan, and my my role is quite similar to Dave's, with a focus on really Association and nonprofits as clients as well as corporations. You know, particularly those that have you know, an in house team most of the time that's in DC, and then multi client firms, you know, both law and independent lobbying firms, I would do less than Dave probably working directly with kind of the the actual law firm itself, on the on the lawyer side, and do represent on a select basis, you know, when it makes good sense, and we, at Times, collaborate, you know, in that effort as well. Yeah,

Unknown:

well, that's great, and you're both in the DC metro region,

Dave Ris:

that's correct.

Unknown:

Great. Both, both our native want to get us kicked off on some of our topics here.

Steve:

Okay, so, um, you know, let's talk a little bit about. Yes, 2024 it's an election year. You know, there is obviously we're not going to get a lot of major legislation done, certainly by what we're reading in the press about certain big issues that are out on the table now. But it'd be good to get your perspective on, you know, what it's going to be like for the people who are, you know, at on the hill or at an agency right now? What's their prospects? What's the timing of that? So I'll turn to the first, I guess. I'll first ask Tim a little bit about what he sees.

Tim Horton:

Yeah, so I think that it may not be a significant factor for a large percentage of talent. And, you know, it's probably important for us to kind of identify the talent we work with. We're mostly going to be working with senior level staff, you know. So think of a Chief of Staff, Chief Counsel, Legislative Director, you know, in the Senate, if their member happens to be retiring at the end of this year, we do find often that they want to serve that term out with their member, particularly at a senior level role. But most others, if it's time, if they've reached their 20 years, and if they're interested in making the move, I don't know, is they're going to let the election year kind of get in the way of that. And I think it will be on a very, you know, select basis. So that's kind of macro level my experience on the hillside, and I know Dave would have more insight on, you know, some of the top agency talent. Yeah,

Dave Ris:

right, yeah. And so I think that in my 15 years plus, of doing this through in every election cycle, every two years, I think we do see a little bit of a slowdown the end. And this year, of course, it seems like the election cycle started sometime in July, or maybe even earlier 2023 but I think Tim's also correct in that the talented people at the top level, they're always in demand, whether it be an election cycle or not. And also, one of the things that that we find is, you know, our candidates tend to be those who are who can work both sides of the aisle, and so the political aspects of it don't tend to get in the way as much.

Tim Horton:

I think another point here too is that while a really talented senior staffer may not technically be looking when someone like us or others call them, you know, it's our role not to talk them into doing something they don't want to do, but to really enthusiastically present to them a compelling opportunity, right? And so sometimes it isn't that they're looking it's that they're presented with something that isn't going to be there if they wait six months,

Steve:

right? And I'll add one thing to that is, is that even though you know the the big hot button issues might not be. You know, moving through Congress this year, there's a lot of issues of importance to business, whether it's in healthcare, energy, infrastructure, whatever, there's a lot of issues out there that will be acted on, and there'll be activity. And so therefore, in a particular for a particular person, there's value now, not just waiting until the end of the year. That said, I'd like to get Dave's perspective a little bit on if you're, you know, if you're coming out of the out of the hill or an agency, you know, what is it, you know, what is it that you provide to these people in terms of the advice and getting them ready for going into the private sector.

Dave Ris:

Yes, and I, and I always like to have conversations with the with the staff, whether they're ready to leave or not. But I want to, I want to talk to them about what they need to do when they do start that transition. I get a lot of calls from from folks who are saying, you know, I'm thinking about leaving, not this cycle, but maybe a couple of years from now. What do I need to be thinking about? And the first thing that they need to think about is the ethics, apps, aspects and they do need to talk to the Ethics Council as soon as they are ready to make that transition. And the other things that I suggest that they do is start keeping a list of who, of who is coming to see them. You know, who from downtown is is stopping in. Right and recognize, you know, take, take a take a measurement. Who are the ones that you like? What? What is it about them that they do that puts them at the top of a list? And, you know, think about who is, is, are the folks that that that you really want to emulate, and what are they doing? So that's that's always a good litmus, but that keeping that list of who has come in to see you is incredibly valuable when you make that transition off of the hill.

Tim Horton:

Yeah, I can just add a couple things. Yeah. I mean, I think that's great in terms of a list. If this person is has any thoughts of going multi client, keep that list in industry as well, right? So you want the firms are great because it gives you a sense of culture, chemistry. But at the end of the day, those firms that you may meet with are going to want to know who you can deliver to them as clients. So So you want to really kind of be keeping you know both of those. The only other element I share with folks that are thinking about kind of staying in their world is there's really three places for you to go. You can go to an association, you can go corporate in house or multi client. And there's really one distinct difference that we see most often, association or corporate in house, there really has to be an opening. Someone's leaving the organization's creating a new role, which means at a senior level, you know, those may not be readily available on a you know, on a regular basis, multi client is the exact opposite. It's a proactive approach to your next move, and if you package and present your brand and your capabilities effectively, you will get meetings with multi client firms.

Unknown:

And so, yeah, I want to ask a question about that multi multi firm, multi client firm, you know, Steve, my experience is in, is in working with lateral partners coming into law firms, and we always talk about the book, the book, the book, the book. And I think you and I have have sort of put a hole in, you know, this big discussion around the book. It's important, but it's not the only thing, right. But, you know, Tim, when somebody's coming in after 20 years on the right, and they are a senior staffer, and they're connected. You know, they're, they're what they have is a, is a, is a, is a armful of connections. They don't have an arm full of business that a like a law firm partner might bring in, right? What's the, what is the dynamic, then, for that person now transitioning into this, in many circumstances, eat what you kill environment, when they've been in a very different environment, and their currency is different than the currency that they're actually have to generate.

Tim Horton:

Yeah, that's a great question. So I've got one thing to add, and then I think Dave will do a better job than I talking about the business plan process, which is significant. When someone comes off the hill, you know, they're considered an investment higher by these multi client firms, and that's understood if they're coming off the hill. And then I let Dave talk about business plans, because he's quite good at it. But that's where the candidate, with guidance from us, you know, presents via the business plan, why they're a good investment.

Dave Ris:

And yeah, and I always ask my candidates to write a business plan, even if they're not looking to go to a multi client firm. And the reason is this, the business plan is incredibly effective at helping the candidate to understand and then articulate their value. I have had conversations with many, many candidates that I did not place who came back to me and said, David, if it wasn't for the business plan, I would not have gotten this job. It was that valuable. And so we we don't write the business plan. We give them a good model of what an effective business plan looks like. And because Steve Nelson wrote a terrific article a few years ago, that really defines it quite well, when then I will certainly read drafts and give and give advice based upon the drafts. But I think the one thing that Tim and I really do is to hold their feet to the fire to get this thing. Done, because it really is that critical, right,

Unknown:

Steve, can we share that link to that article in the meeting notes? Those are out there listening? Okay, so I will go ahead and add that anybody's out there listening, go into the meeting notes, and you're going to find the contact information for everybody on this, on this podcast. And that that article that that Steve wrote,

Steve:

so let's talk a little bit about compensation, because that's obviously important to to everybody concerned. Um, one thing that I've heard is that many people coming off the hill or out of an agency sometimes get an unrealistic view of what, what they will be paid or could get paid in the private sector. They talk to their friends and friends tell them how much money they made, whether it's true or not true. But I'd like to get, you know, your perspective on that. Tim, you want to start,

Tim Horton:

yeah, I mean, without actually top talking exact numbers, because it's, you know, it's unique to an organization, and certainly unique to our to the clients that we serve. And it's somewhat confidential, but I think, as a guideline, as a top level staffer, I think it would be realistic to assume, you know, somewhere between a third, 35 to a 50% bump from where you were, generally speaking, right now, Steve, your point's a great one. We talk to people and they say, I know all these people that have left, and I think I'm worth this. When you probe. I said, How many people have you talked to and received compensation? They said about seven. I said, How many made that one? So you have to be realistic and do your due diligence, and they should talk to others. But I think those numbers are realistic. And I think if someone coming out is just saying, well, I need to double or triple my money right away, if you're the Majority Leader's Chief of Staff for 15 years, that might be a reasonable ask, but I'm not sure it is for everyone.

Dave Ris:

And I think that that's a really good that's terrific advice from Tim, because both of us here that that same dialog from candidates who say, but I heard so and so got thus and such. And we, and Tim and I both sit back and say, Well, we know pretty much what, what that guy got, and it wasn't that. So those numbers do tend to be inflated. And it's then, it's also, you know, compensation is one piece, but find a place that where you're really going to be happy working on the kind of work that you want to do, and that that becomes incredibly valuable and and also don't, don't get too lost in that first year number, because that's a starting point. Year two, year three could be very different.

Tim Horton:

I think one of the differences too is often an association or corporate is going to have a pretty defined guideline of what a position pays. Multi client, candidly, is pretty open, but you know, kind of to Dave's point, kind of be careful what you wish for, because if you can negotiate a sky high base, you're going to have about an hour before you have to deliver your first piece of business when you show up. So it's really important to understand the dynamics of the organization, what the expectations are when you're expected to deliver all of that has to be done and really clear up front so that it's a win, win solution. And when we're involved, we kind of drive those factors to ensure that no one shows up and all of a sudden calls us back and said, this isn't what I thought. Well, then you weren't listening, because we went through all of this, you know, over and over

Unknown:

and to Tim's point, you know, when working with my background as well business development and marketing in a law firm context, the time it takes to close from initial conversation to actual billable work is anywhere from 12 to 18 months. It's one of the longest tails in sales. I got to imagine that in sort of in your sector, there's something similar. So those people, Tim to your point, who are coming in from an agency or from the hill, and they, they don't have a ready book of business, it's going to take them, you know, a couple of years to build up a real book of business. They'll get some business, maybe out of the box, some people doing them a favor, whatever. But it's going to take some time and and so you. More the higher the price you have, over your tag, over your head, faster. People are expecting you to convert that. So I think that's that's excellent advice. It's

Dave Ris:

a second point, though. Murray, yeah, there is a misconception that all firms eat what you kill. And I think a lot of the firms that we work with. They recognize that that it's going to take folks a little bit of time to get their, you know, get their feet under them and with and they are committed to making sure that this individual is successful. If the candidate is really committed to being successful, is committed to doing the kinds of things that they need to be doing, and if they are doing the kinds of things that they should be doing to get to that that that big goal that they want. Yep, the firm's going to recognize the effort. Yes, it's, it's the the individual who sits in the office and doesn't take phone calls, doesn't make phone calls, and just expects to be fed they're in trouble.

Steve:

Why don't you talk a little bit about the various merits of the lobbying firm, the non law firm, lobbying firm versus the law firm, and the one thing we do know is that the lobbying firms have much lower overhead. So the book of business, you can get paid more, at least, you know, superficially at a at a lobbying firm, but there are advantages in a law firm as well. So maybe you want to talk to that a little bit, Dave

Dave Ris:

and so I think it that depends a lot on what the candidate wants to do in in some cases, they really do want to go to a law firm because they do want to have that habit, that hybrid, you know, practice, which is some government affairs and some legal aspects and and some of the, some of the folks that we place, you know, they start completely on the legislative side, and talk to them 10 years later, and they're completely working on clients, on sub substantive issues. So that's something to take into account. The law firms you know have have a have a pretty big advantage on that side, because you're billing clients, not only for legal work, but other aspects that the firm provides. And in the right firm, you'll be introduced to clients, the look the quote, unquote law firm clients, and for because of your because of your legislative expertise, and so that's that's a tremendous help. On the on the other hand, the lobby shops can move really quickly. They're not as bureaucratic. And you know, a lot of them do have teamwork environments and and that's attractive. So, you know, consider both.

Tim Horton:

I don't have any, that's exactly what I would have said. The The only point I'll make, and it wasn't a direct response to your question, is, sometimes, I think the perception is, in order to go work in government affairs at a law firm, you have to have a law degree. And that is absolutely not correct

Dave Ris:

at all. Increasingly, so Right, yeah,

Unknown:

yep, yeah. And I, as I've talked to lateral partner candidates, or people who are thinking of going into the lateral market, one of the questions that I encourage them to ask about is, what is the level of support? So, David, to your point of, you know, the the while there's there's this expectation that they'll be able to build this business, what's the level of support to help them get to that point, and what's the firm's experience in working with people? If they've got a great practice that there's, you know, they've, you know, they've, they've got a good sort of good, good path, fantastic. If you're starting something from scratch, or you're or you're going into a firm that that's not ready to commit the resources that I think those are, those are, those are significant questions that that need to be asked, especially for people coming who are coming off of private service for 1015, 20 years,

Dave Ris:

yeah. And so there's, there's a couple of things, a we have those conversations, both with the candidates and also with the clients, you know, the employers about you know this, these are the kinds of questions that they're going to have in their mind, and you need to be addressing these things and be prepared to talk about them from both sides of the table. And the other thing is, whenever I'm working with a candidate directly, I typically try to convince them. Talk to a business development coach, and maybe even engage a business development coach, because that is a tremendous, tremendous impact on your career, just that having that business coach at your side for the first year or so has incredible value.

Tim Horton:

The other piece too is in terms of fit with, with with your with your background, and whether it's subject matter, expertise or industry. So for example, are you someone who wants to go somewhere and kind of build out, let's say a a a FinTech practice and get into all this, or are you someone that's more comfortable getting plugged in to an already established, you know, healthcare practice that doesn't matter whether that's law firm or independent lobbying firm, but that's a big consideration, and so your final decision might come down to that. So, you know, I really like this place, because I'm not starting from scratch. They have a team. I've got to develop a practice area, but I've got, I've got some support. So I mean that that's a big consideration, I think, depending upon the candidate's personality and kind of desire.

Steve:

So Murray, anything else that we want to address here?

Unknown:

Well, you know, I always like to hear, and we, we didn't prep for this, but what the heck I always like to kind of hear, off the top of the head, off the top of your heads, predictions for when we're this early in the year, kind of predictions for where the where the hot areas are going to be. You know, if people are listening and they're trying to evaluate whether it's time for them to make a move, is this the year for the people who have the oil and gas experience, or is this the year for the people who have the heavy EPA experience? Or what the the, you know, who wants to start on that, on that prediction, and what the hot areas are going to be, if you got a big smile on your face, yeah? Is that because you don't know, or you do know? Yeah.

Dave Ris:

It's, yeah, it's kind of all of the above. Murray healthcare is always hot, okay? And it's, it's that's not going to change anytime in the in the near future. Another thing to think about is, I started my career place in a lot of people from the tax world, and that that business slowed down a great deal next year is going to be a big tax year, and so the firms and the other employers are, you know, in house employers are, are recognizing that tax is all of a sudden going to be on the table, and they need to be working with clients, and you know, internally to prepare for new negotiations around around the tax laws, energy is always a significant issue, and energy also as it applies to infrastructure, are always, are always areas of interests.

Tim Horton:

Yes, it seems like over the last few years, we've seen broadly defined kind of financial services is somewhat top of mind. And I guess you know, maybe it comes back to, it's the economy, stupid, I'm not sure, but that doesn't ever seem to be much more than third or fourth in line. I also think we could see a shift depending upon what happens with the election, right? You just don't know. But I think those three broad categories. You know, every year, Dave and I strategy includes those as well as others.

Steve:

Yeah, and I would add that technology and technology policy is on the table right now. You see, I'm thinking of everyone who sees the ads about, you know, are we, you know, where are we going with technology? Are we regulating it or we want it more of a free market approach? And I think that battle is going to happen this year, and it doesn't appear that there's a you know, you can see both Democrats and Republicans have differing views on that, even within their own parties.

Dave Ris:

Yeah, and then overlay artificial intelligence on that whole discussion. Yeah, very much. So yeah, the other area that I'm hearing a lot about is national security and defense, getting lots of, lots of asks from clients for for talent in that area.

Unknown:

Excellent. Yeah. Why don't

Steve:

you, Dave, why don't you go through that a little bit more in depth in terms of, what are they talking about with national security? What are the issues that people are focused on?

Dave Ris:

Well, there's, if it falls into a couple of different camps. One thing are this the discussion around Homeland Security, that's that's an area. Great interest and and then you also have the side that the defense on the defense side, every year the defense appropriations bill is renegotiated, and government contractors are very busy in the defense contracting world. And so candidates who know how to work with the government contracting industry and helping the contractors to be successful. They're in a great deal of value also, which is very DC, that very definitely a DC. You know, in just DC is not a town of a big town for industry, one exception is the government contracting sector, right,

Unknown:

right, right? Government contracting, absolutely. Tim, any additional thoughts before we close?

Tim Horton:

No, I do not

Unknown:

great. Well, thank you. Tim, thank you. David. Steve, always a always a pleasure. And if anybody has questions for Tim, David, Steve, one thing I do know about my friends in the form of group, they're always happy to take a call to you know, help you think through next steps in your career or next steps in how you're going to grow your your your firm or or your organization. So please, please, don't worry about calling them right. Guys, absolutely those cards and letters coming. Super Steve, until next time. Tim, Dave, thank you. Thank you.